Full Transcript

Greg Finch (00:25)

Today we welcome Jason Forouhar, former Army Special Forces Officer, Green Beret, during the height of the war on terror. He's a father of three wonderful daughters, husband, outdoorsman, and a retreat leader and planner for Operation Healing Forces. The guy's learning to surf in his late 40s in Washington state. I had a great time chatting with Jason today. We've done surf retreats in the recent past with Operation Healing Forces

was just great to have an uninterrupted hour to talk with Jason. Let's get to our episode with Jason Forouhar

Jason (01:01)

I originally decided to join the military. I saw like originally what sparked it. There was a flyer up. I was at the university of Connecticut and there was a flyer and it said like adventure camp or something. like aerosol school flyer and it was totally, you know, a bait.

till I get college students involved in ROTC and join the military. in a certain sense, kind of, the following for the flyer just got me thinking about an alternate path to my interests. I was studying experimental psych, cognitive science at the University of Connecticut. I, the more,

I studied and the more I kind of started doing graduate work as an undergraduate research. And I saw these PhD students that were drinking coffee all day, constipated, under fluorescent lights, like 18 hours a day doing their research. And as fascinating as those problem solving of how do we understand reality was, I was like.

Is this really something I wanna do? Like this is me in 10 years, this is horrible. And I also got a sense at a university that like no one, like the academics had never left school, you know? So they like had gone to high school, got a college, gone to graduate school, got a PhD and now we're teaching and they've never left academia. And it just seemed very myopic and...

closed and.

Greg Finch (02:47)

Yeah, it's like that's the, I don't want to go as far as worldview, but a professional student. They are in ecosystem that has a pathway and there's certainly always different paths that people can go. But if you are going down that road of academia, it does have a fairly set structure. These are the tiers and these are the paths that you're going on.

Jason (02:51)

Yeah.

Yeah.

And it, you know, it has its, even in academia has its limits, but in life it really has its limits. Right. and I, you know, I have a hundred percent respect for people that have devoted themselves to science and, know, really understanding how the world works through academia and process. Like that's how we have a modern world. Right. But

I'm not, just was a little disillusioned about that being my path. I wanted to go out and do stuff in the world. and so, I got involved in the mill, you know, in the ROTC program at the university of Connecticut. know, next thing you know, next thing I know, I, you know, I'm an infantry officer, a young infantry officer and infantry officer basic.

and about to go to Ranger school and nine, nine 11 happens, right? and so, you know, it took us to the field. So we were like completely isolated from any kind of information. All we knew was that we'd been attacked and we were, you know, we're a class of young infantry officers in the U S army about to go take infantry platoons, probably to combat directly from, from school.

You know, so, Ranger school, jump school, straight to the unit. And then, you know, to kind of shorten the, the, the storyline, just 10, a decade continuous of, of combat, like deployed, take a platoon invasion of Iraq, 18 months in Iraq, full urban combat in Mosul.

And while I'm there, I apply for special forces selection. And like, go home, go directly to special forces selection, make it through the pipeline and deploy right to war again. And just did that until,

kind of had some rough tours and had a baby on the way and kind of realized that I either come back to civilization or have a career where it's just really, really devoted to kind of combat life and that...

It's kind of, in certain sense, I was a little bit on the ragged edge after kind of continuous combat for 10 years. And so I had a baby on the way and so I kind of made a choice for my own mental health to change my path.

Greg Finch (06:05)

Do you think that was uncommon perspective that you had?

Jason (06:08)

I think, I mean, there's a couple simultaneous viewpoints, right, on that. One is in order to become a special forces officer in the army, there is a certain amount, especially back then, because there was active war going on and a lot of people that joined. There was a certain devotion to career, which was absolute to that path.

You didn't, you didn't become a special forces ODA commander or special forces officer in the army without 100 % devoting your life for a long period of time with that path in mind and really not doing anything else with your life for a while. So

to the point where you don't really, you don't have, you don't have other, you don't have relationships, you don't have hobbies, you really are just doing the job. So it can be really hard to pull away, because your whole world is that. More than you may even realize, which was my case, I thought my transition out would be easy, and my identity and my life was more tied in, way more tied in than I had realized.

On the other hand, back to back combat deployments for guys for 10 years, there was a lot of burnout then and for a while. And so there were guys that were very professional, very devoted to that profession that just got burnt out. There was just no more rubber on the tires. And so there were probably more than average, you know, guys that had spent.

10 years getting to where they were and being like, I've had enough.

Greg Finch (07:55)

With your connection still to active duty special forces, and do you see that changing? Do you see that understanding of having some different aspects of their life and staying connected in different relationships? Or is that just?

not possible in the roles that you play and the missions that you have.

Jason (08:17)

Yeah, yeah, things were very different when I got out.

over 10 years ago now. It was a very unique, I think it was a very unique time in the sense that we were just 100 % full throttle from 2001 to say 2012 or so. And when I got out, really was, there wasn't much of an opportunity. Like there was a lot more need and

for our skill set and our job, there was, so there was, there simply wasn't the opportunity to take care of each other, to have other programs, to have a transitioning program set up, because we were so focused on just getting the fundamentals of going to war done. And there's people that are, there's people that are on the outside, even that are connected to the military, often be like,

Well, why didn't they take care of you better? Right. Why didn't they? Well, there is no they. It's it's us. We're the ones. It's our organization. It's not there's no they. The people that are literally, you know, in charge of putting together a transition program or put it or be in charge of like mental health of troops that are going doing back to back to back to combat or back to back to back combat.

Greg Finch (09:28)

Yeah.

Jason (09:53)

They're commanding units, you know. So the opportunity and the pace wasn't there, their opportunity really wasn't, it was just everyone was swimming as hard as they could upstream. Now as the pace of multiple front wars kind of slowed down, they definitely have picked up.

attention to having kind of a healthier mindset in the military. But you go against a few kind of norms. Essentially you have guys and girls that to go into that profession, whether you're a ranger or a SEAL or a green beret or wherever it is, are 100 % focused. Otherwise they wouldn't be there. They wouldn't make it through selection and they wouldn't choose the job.

So they aren't naturally just well balanced in that sense often. They're very highly focused people. They wouldn't be in the profession if they weren't. And the leadership are that way and the job is that way. And so it really takes a deliberate effort.

to not be so myopic, but at the same time, they understand now that for the longevity of the force, you really have to take care of folks. have to give them some downtime. You have to have a sustainable operational tempo. And they're a lot better at that. mean, the transition programs they have now in place for folks that weren't in place when I got out.

are really, really thorough and they're, they're, they're very good. Yeah.

Greg Finch (11:43)

Yeah.

Going back to the time when you were at the University of Connecticut and getting involved in ROTC, did that timetable from that setting to being active duty, did that speed up or change the path because of 9-11?

Jason (12:05)

I think the way I changed the path that I would have been on is I probably wouldn't have been so burnt out after 10 years of combat. I may, yeah, I would may have had a full military career and had a certain amount of mental health that was better, though I may not have ever done my job with the same amount of enthusiasm. I mean, I got to go to the Superbowl as it were, right? In that profession multiple times.

But the transition back to normal or civilian life and back to the civilized world would have been a lot easier. It didn't speed up. They didn't speed up or cut the timeline in any way. I had already kind of decided what I wanted to do when I went into the military, and that didn't change at all.

But instead of training and going on trips where you're training and

You know, I, I, I kind of refer some of the guys in my generation and girls in my generation would refer to prior nine 11, like the golf club army, like guys go to the range to train a little bit. They go to the golf club. have, you know, Friday afternoons at the bar or whatever that, that was not the experience of my generation at all. Right. And so that's how it should.

Greg Finch (13:32)

Yeah, yeah, didn't, you didn't have literally

have the time or attention or capacity to do it. It was all so yeah.

Jason (13:38)

Yeah, there's wasn't there.

And, and so a certain part of judge satisfaction, that's not why I joined anyway. I, I was not an officer or senior NCO that like cared that much about politics or socializing or lifestyle. I was really wanted to do the job. And so I loved the fact that I had the opportunity to really do it. and I that's the case for most, most of the folks in the profession. So.

Greg Finch (14:08)

think getting to that, like you said, the hyper focus it takes, dude, nobody stumbles into special forces, right? You have a very clear path that you're going on, the effort it takes to get there, the commitment to make it happen. So to get to that level, you have to stay so hyper focused and committed. How does that motivation or internal

personality translate post special forces? It can be specific to you or what you see. How is that best applied post that career of special forces? I am not speaking for myself here real quick. This is what we're going to talk about in a minute is about surfing. No way to compare those two things except for the level of focus it takes to do it.

It allows your mind to be right in that place, right in that moment. And without that, I would be much more frustrated in life. just, so many things are going on. So talk about your path post special forces before surfing came into your life. Was that a struggle, that aspect of it, the mental focus or the lack of having that focus? How did that work for you?

Jason (15:36)

Yeah, mean, the transition out of the military, I'm going to say, especially after that timeframe where we really, really had multiple wars and multiple fronts. For the average guy in my profession or girl in my profession is really tough. And like I said, it's way tougher than I even expected. I thought I was pretty well, pretty well balanced.

in a certain sense, compared to some of the other folks that I knew, and I didn't realize until I was out how much of a challenge it was gonna be. It is really hard coming from that profession to find another endeavor in life, whether it's a profession or any endeavor that can replace that job, you know.

and the intensity and the focus and the adrenaline and the feeling of accomplishment and the sense of meaning and the team that you're on.

it's really, really hard to do it. it's really essential, part of my job now is I really talk to some of the guys and girls that are getting out and see if they're aware of it and see what their plan is because it is, the transition can be very, very hard. And if you don't go into something that can really at least partially replace it.

the challenges of drugs and alcohol and risky behaviors and can be a problem. mean, for me, for example, I got out, was taking mortars in the Philippines, know, was on a combat tour that the Philippine Marines that I was combat advising had 28 casualties in nine months, you know. And months later, getting back from that, I was a stay at home dad in rural Washington with

one screaming baby and nine months later, two screaming babies. That transition is really tough, right? And I just don't have the personality to have really kind of drugs and alcohol problems, but it wasn't long later that I joined a motorcycle club and had started doing all kinds of risky behaviors that were not healthy. And I really didn't.

I don't think I had a good understanding of why I needed those things. The tribalism that the club replaced, some of the risk taking behaviors, riding motorcycles in a pack way too fast, that type of stuff.

Greg Finch (18:28)

Were you acknowledging

the risk at the moment or is that in reflection?

Jason (18:33)

I mean, I was a little bit aware of it back then, but in reflection, I'm much more aware of there was a giant hole in my life that could not be replaced by the kind of daily mundane life in the civilized rural or suburban America.

And luckily, or just, I just saw the signs coming, you know, I got into a few things that kind of took place of that. I started ski patrolling at Crystal Mountain, started getting into Jiu-Jitsu. I eventually changed career paths and found surfing, right? And that really helped replace some of that. But yeah, it's a very unique job. You can't go from,

hunting down and be in operation where you like hunt down and kill Saddam's sons, Zude and Kousei Hussein to shopping for formula in Walmart and not have transitional problems and not feel like there's a hole. The relationship with the guys on the team, it's not easy to replace that close relationship in regular life, however you wanna call it.

The transition was hard. Like I said, I was not aware of it. I think it's very common that a lot of the folks transitioning out even today are not aware of how hard the challenge is. They are not aware of how much their identity is tied into that job, how many of their relationships and their close relationships with the folks that they serve with, how very, how impossible it is to replace those relationships.

the sense of meaning that you have coming from a profession like that is very hard to replace. I mean, you could maybe find it working, you know, in healthcare, working in an emergency room or being a police officer or public service in other ways, but it's really hard to replace it. And it can be, it's caused some soul searching for sure.

Greg Finch (20:43)

It's also that absolute abrupt change of recurring patterns of actually seeing those people. Those relationships are structured around, even away from deployment, where you're having these actual physical interactions with people that are being necessitated by the jobs that you're in. And that immediately goes away.

And now there's none of those patterns to bring you back in contact with people to even start to not replace those relationships, but even start new ones as you go. think this is a common theme away from what we're talking about right now, which is there's not those same patterns that are bringing people back in contact, deepening those relationships.

Jason (21:25)

Yeah. In life. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

It's exact. Very, very true. And it's a great point, Greg, that I mean, you get up and you get up really early. You go meet all the folks that you were to work with, whether you realize it or not, you're happy to see them, even though they may drive you crazy or might have aggravations with them. And then you go do physical exercise.

at dawn for an hour or two hours, first thing in the morning, every day, right? And then you work together and you might be doing, you're probably doing something intense, something interesting, something physically demanding might involve travel, you know, when you get out, if you relax and you're not getting the physical exercise, you're not meeting up with people.

You don't have that sense of purpose and intensity and meaning from whatever profession you've chosen. If you've been smart enough to have something laid on right away and you're not just retiring, yeah, those things, you don't realize the serious impact on your wellbeing and your life when all those things all at once just disappear, right? Yeah, to honest.

Greg Finch (22:46)

Yeah, the structure. mean, there's

no question that you're going to get up in dawn and go have an hour of PT. That's what you do. And then suddenly that's gone. And so while it was a very ingrained habit that you had, it wasn't internally motivated at that point. So I'd be interested. You would know this more than I would do a lot of active duty going into

Jason (22:54)

No, this is just what you're doing. Yeah.

Greg Finch (23:14)

retired from that special forces or otherwise, do they struggle immediately with that? Obviously, this is what I do, coach and movement and physical like, or is it so many years in there that they can get back to it fairly quickly? I know that's a big question, but what's what's the general of

Jason (23:29)

Yeah, I think there's

a period of time where you have a little bit of a honeymoon period of being retired or being out. And there's that newness of having a certain amount of personal freedom and, you know, letting your hair grow long and, but that, you know, that wears off relatively quickly.

And yeah, you can have a big empty hole that, know, if you're not right away going into school, going into another profession, you can be in serious trouble. Yeah.

Greg Finch (24:11)

Yeah.

We'll talk about on that right there. Talk about your first introduction to Operation Healing Forces. How did you hear about it? How did you become involved?

Jason (24:22)

so, you know, to kind of continue where I left off, I was, I, I went and got a job after being, I stayed at home dad for, for about three years, but towards the ends of that, I went and started working again, in an intelligence school as a facilitator or trainer. and I did that for quite a while.

And I, then I got involved in a business kind of tech startup where, we had some software that kind of tracks and helped you communicate and help let other people track your whereabouts and what you're doing and would automatically update what was going on. It was really for kind of executive travel safety purposes. so I got, it was, yeah, centered on security. So it would.

Greg Finch (25:09)

Still centered on security or?

Jason (25:15)

You know, it's commonplace now, but you know, it an app on your phone that went to a command center and it would automatically distract where you were. can communicate directly with it. It would notify, you know, if you're an engineer or an executive, like when you landed in country, would send a, send a message to the op center. Hey, this executive is, is landed safely in country, you know, and then get to the office and automatically geofence the office. Hey, they're in the office and they're.

they're fine. And then it, you know, it would facilitate kind of communication and location. and it was, was a good app. and we had a bunch of products like that.

That startup kind of grew. We started acquiring other organizations. And next thing you know, I'm kind of vice president of a $30 million a year company with a lot of employees. And I was a business executive and I was extremely miserable. I was...

Greg Finch (26:24)

That's a different day today. That is an absolutely different day today.

Jason (26:24)

And yeah, absolutely

miserable. I've just stopped. Money doesn't motivate me. And somehow you become like a business development executive and it just, you you get kind of get promoted and things grow. And so you can't step away and you get pulled in and, but you're still absolutely miserable. and so it really wasn't working out for me because I just don't get any self satisfaction of making money.

and there was no greater meaning for me. And I respected the people I worked with. We wouldn't necessarily get along and see eye to eye on a lot of things all the time. And at the same time, a friend of mine that had been on my team got a job at Operation Healing Forces.

and they had been a participant and they got a job and they kind of said, hey, Jason, I know how you feel about your current profession. This, we might have an opportunity, a job opening up for West Coast folks for you to be able to kind of link up with West Coast units and run retreats on the West Coast. And if they decide to open that up, you need to apply. And so essentially that's what-

That's what happened. They opened up a job opportunity for a new retreat lead. I had not been on a retreat. I mean, I understood the mission and I understood what the purpose was and I believed in it. But essentially, a friend of mine kind of referred me over, got the interview, got the job and was off on our planning and executing our treat a few months later.

Greg Finch (28:12)

For those that don't really know, just talk about Operation Healing Forces' mission and what you do.

Jason (28:12)

And that's

Yeah.

Yeah. And so, you know, the Operation Healing Forces mission, we have a number of things.

that we do, but a big part of our programming, like half of the programming really is our couples retreats. And so, in special operations, it's not uncommon for one spouse, usually it's a guy, the guy.

basically constantly, constantly in training or deployed and not home, right? Doing an intense job, in and out of combat maybe for two decades, three decades, right? And at the same time, mom is at home raising the kids by herself, right? And of course there are women in special operations that have the same challenges.

And the family stays together oftentimes through, you know, through the career, maybe not through the whole career. but even if during retirement, you know, all the things that we discussed earlier about the loss of identity, the loss of the social group, the loss of physical exercise, the loss of sense of coincides with retiring or getting out of the military and coming home.

to your spouse, whether it's male or female, and your kids that may or may not be, they may be in college, they may be gone, and they're not used to having you there. And they're also used to running things on their own. And you haven't spent any time together in 20 something years and barely know each other anymore. That doesn't always go that well. And so the next thing you know,

that support structure is gone and this transitioning soldier, Marine, sailor, whatever, not only has that loss of their entire identity and life from the military, but...

their family's gone too. then they, know, next thing you know, you're in, they buy a place in Montana and they're got, they're drinking too much and got guns. And it's not a great, it's not a great recipe for a healthy like follow on life. So we do over 50 couple of retreats a year with the goal of

having a couple spend some time together, devoted to focusing on each other, doing something that might be adventurous, might be challenging.

but to bring them together, to start some of the conversations that are necessary for transitioning out of the military, to just give them some time to focus on each other and learn from each other. And then, you know, there's three other couples, typically there's four couples total usually, three other couples that are on the retreat that are going through some of the same stuff. And so the spouses get together and say, well, yeah.

My spouse has gone through the exact same things in the military. They have the same crazy habits. They do the same stuff. They can relate. They can understand the challenges of being alone and raising a family by themselves. And they're all together, kind of can collaborate and discuss and have that time to understand that they're not alone in the challenges of having a relationship in the military and discuss. Some folks might've just retired. Some folks might be.

be retiring soon and they can kind of say, this is how our process has been and this is how school is going or how the new job is going or how working with a VA is going. And they can kind of collaborate and discuss and prepare. And, you know, there's a lot of times where I hear, it seems like every retreat I hear from, typically from the spouse, this is the first time in 20 years.

where we've been together.

without any distractions and we can be focused on each other. And so it's really impactful for the company.

Greg Finch (32:59)

There's two things that one is how amazing it is to see just the space, literally physically the space, but the space of time as is given to them in that setting and it takes hold. You can see it happening. can just, you're witnessing it. And within that same idea of seeing, the spouse.

Like on the last retreat we did, which we'll talk about, one of the participants, the spouse came up to me and she said, like maybe about the third day, she said, I just finally got to this place a few hours ago where I just felt my shoulders just relaxed. Like I don't have to worry about what the kids are doing. I don't have to worry about cooking. I don't have to worry about the plans. don't have to worry.

Like I was holding that because that's just what I do. That's what I do when we're on trips, even in a vacation setting. I do that and I don't have to do that right now. And like that just that the idea of that statement and how powerful that is to facilitate that other area, which is of course what our focus is, which is the space to be able to have these discussions or just relax or just connect.

It really is such an amazing thing.

Jason (34:22)

Yeah, and I think you and I had a discussion early on. and I kind of gave you my philosophy. said, Hey, don't be surprised if I'm not like leading a lot of discussions or getting in to the couples and pulling things out or leading kind of any therapy sessions. It's like, don't be surprised what I try to do. And I think all of us at OHF on the retreat side do is really set the conditions.

and plan the retreat and take the stress of planning and worrying completely away. And I think to use your language, like provide the space for them to have this discussions on their own between them, whether it's as a group or just couples themselves. And by providing that space, they have an opportunity that they don't have in day-to-day life, whether it's kids and job, or even on their vacation that they plan where they...

have to run the vacation themselves, there isn't the space to just pay attention to each other and talk.

Greg Finch (35:31)

allows the opportunity for them to define what they need, because they might not really know. so by, again, back to that space idea, because it's there, they can kind of just let that happen. Whatever that is, it's not being determined for them before. So they are able to get the most out of that for themselves. that's a unique thing.

Jason (35:36)

Yeah.

Yeah, absolutely. You know, one thing that's important to us is, you we put on there like, no therapy sessions. You know, they do have opportunities for retreats, whether it's with, you know, the chaplain there, or there's other organizations there that always have kind of an overt agenda and they have classes and they have PowerPoint presentations and they have like,

They have organized group discussions and I think there is absolutely a place for that. but a couple of things, lot of the Rangers and seals and green parades, they don't want to work with a therapist. know, they don't want to listen to it's just a fact, you know? And so they may not participate at all because they don't want to be told,

how to think, how to have relationship with their spouse. Number one, and then number two, those sometimes don't provide that space and that time. so you can have a couple that's sitting on the beach and having a conversation that they haven't had the opportunities you have in 20 years. And they're like, hey, it's time for the PowerPoint slides on how to communicate.

Stop your talk, right? And then come here and we're gonna sit and look at the PowerPoint presentation. We're gonna lecture you on some exercise that may or may not be helpful, but we're gonna interrupt the conversation that you're naturally having to do that. And so I think we're really unique in the sense that we set up the conditions for those conversations to take happen, to happen without having like an overt therapy session. Trying to just provide the opportunity.

Greg Finch (37:48)

I think in our

surf specific retreats that we're doing, that allows for that underlying activity to be there. And again, it's not so set and so structured that it has to be one thing for everybody. You can participate in the surfing component of it as much.

And I would say as little because it is an expectation that you're going to put your effort into learning it. And it's a difficult activity. But beyond that, it just allows for it to be, again, unique to the individual and just us as surfers, knowing that the physical activity and effort it takes to surf is hugely elevated. high level of people being uncomfortable, if not fearful.

even highly trained, highly skilled special forces, in my first person experience, taking them through retreats and putting them through instruction, if they don't have a familiarity with the ocean, they're immediately, literally out of their comfort zones. That's a huge benefit. I'm not talking fear or safety or any of those things, just taking it outside a comfort zone.

It allows them to be open up. They kind of have to accept being a little vulnerable. And just again, kind of looking at impression and what I'm feeling from them, that's not something they're used to. They're used to being extremely trained in control of a situation. And that's the one thing that you never are when you're surfing and in the ocean. The ocean is in control. And you have to kind of let this thing go. And I think that just makes for such a unique

atmosphere to have those that I just call it ocean therapy, but to have those opportunities and have those, can't tell you how many times I've been out in the water with somebody on a retreat. And this conversation starts just organically without being prompted about things they probably never would have talked about 20 minutes ago on shore. And that's, mean, that's just such a great tool to have.

Jason (40:05)

Yeah, the surfing, I encourage full participation in the surfing. I do other retreats in it. No matter what we're doing, I encourage full participation.

And it's a vehicle for everything you discussed. It's a vehicle for a certain amount of personal challenge. It's a vehicle for learning something new and bringing about conversations and going through emotions that are relevant to, you know, your daily life and your relationship with your spouse and participating and meeting that challenge is, is, is part of those setting conditions that we kind of talked about earlier.

And I agree with you, a lot of special operations, are, especially green berets are selected for handling the unknown really.

but very rarely, and I'm gonna pick on seals a little bit, especially seals, they really expect to master things easily. And surfing is not easy. It's really hard, which is what makes it great. And honestly, I'm always joyous to see the spouse who had lower expectations, right?

than the, you know, the young ranger, Seal Green Beret, Marshal Guy, Air Force, you know, whatever.

because they think that they can master something in a short period of time and they're, they expect surfing to be easy. And then the spouse that spouse that does yoga is catching waves and standing up and surfing really well and having a great time. And, the special operator is super frustrated that they're, they're not the best person in the water, like within hours of learning to serve, which is, which is one of things that makes surfing great.

Greg Finch (42:05)

Of course it is. mean, I've said this numerous times, but there'll be times where like, like I've been serving since I was 15 and like, then I'll surf and I'll be, it's like I've never surfed before. Nothing is lining up. oftentimes it's, it's in your head, right? Because you're somewhere else or you're thinking about something else and you don't have that hyper focus. And this of course is why we keep coming back to it.

Jason (42:05)

honestly, because...

Yeah.

Greg Finch (42:30)

is because it's brand new every time you do it. Literally, the conditions are brand new, but you are new. You are refreshed as you come into it. And if you're not there 100%, then it doesn't work. You might lock into a couple here or there, but you have got to have your focus on that. And that's, of course, what allows you to really handle all of those things that are piling up on you. It's just perspective. I say it over and over again, but

I'm reminded every time I do it. It's like a lesson that I'm just relearning every time, growing hopefully from it, not in the same spot, but that lesson is just being refreshed.

talk to us about your path to surfing. How did that come about?

Jason (44:37)

So my personal path to surfing came through my job at Operation Healing Forces.

I, you know, was kind of the end of my first year where I had my collaborative retreat with Operation Surf I took like two surf lessons because I didn't want to be completely inept in the water. Not that two surf lessons really, it's better than zero.

Greg Finch (45:00)

better than zero.

Jason (45:02)

But I didn't want like to have to be a liability. I'm a facilitator. I'm the group lead that's, you know, I'm not in charge of the surfing, but I'm in charge of everything else. And then I'm a lot, I don't want to be a liability in the water myself. So I took a couple of surf lessons. I live in Washington and I've learned that Washington has challenging surf, but it was summertime. So there was surf. And actually there was another group up here that is another nonprofit kind of.

that was going at the time that took me under their wing and gave me some lessons and took me out and had the group of folks that were in Westport, Washington at the jetty that were super helpful. So I surfed like maybe four times or something and then I went to Opsurf retreat and got to spend actually like two weeks with the folks in the water.

with the couples in the water and on the central coast in civilized surf. And I had done, I mean, retreats, I had done a lot of retreats all on a short period of time because I still wanted to do my full years worth of work even though I didn't have a full year to do it. So I had done like maybe 14 or 13, 12 retreats of other styles of AHF already.

And they're all good and they're all, they're amazing. And the couples really benefited, but I saw at Operation Surf, partially because of who they are, but partially just because of what surfing is, a much higher level of emotional connection and personal development on that retreat than I had seen.

on our other retreats.

there was a number of reasons, one of which was, know, Operation Surf does a great job themselves of bringing a little bit of deliberate thought process and intentionality to the day, which I've kind of picked up and stolen from them a little bit on my retreats. But also because surfing, all the reasons why surfing is great, which I'm sure many of your listeners already know, but being in the water,

especially if it's a little bit cold and you get a little bit of that cold adrenaline dopamine and the requirement to be 100 % focused on what's going on in the water and the challenge. And then the feeling of riding a wave and that just like that smooth awe of nature that you get on a green wave, particularly that is really irreplaceable.

And then they're in the water with their spouse trying to pass the break and their wife or their husband is helping them get through the break and they have the coach kind of waiting on them or whatever. And they're cheering each other on. And then day to day to day, they're getting a little bit better and learning a little bit more. And we're going to a little bit bigger break every day. And they, you know, both the spouse and the service member.

are doing things that they didn't ever think they could do. They have like real emotional upheaval during the process, which I, you know, done, we did ski retreats, you know, gone fishing and just horseback riding, all of which are special activities, but surfing was unique on how it affected the couples. And I have to say that it seemed like every day there was somebody

that did not have dry eyes because of something that they had worked through in the water.

Greg Finch (49:04)

Yeah. It's literally that immersion, right? You're

literally immersed in this experience and it does allow for that kind of opening up because you're hyper-focused, you have to let go of these other things. So very present, physically demanding. So you're kind of worn down a little bit in the best way. it, it, it allows, these are all great triggers for allowing you to kind of open up, relax a little bit.

And then like you said, they're doing it together, the couple, and then the couples are doing it together. So they're sharing this experience together and laughing and, you know, as falling and, you know, all of these things. It's just this great communal.

Jason (49:48)

It's,

it's really amazing. It really is. and like you said, you, you like the word you use immersive. So in some ways it's an overused word and others aspects, but being in the water and surfing is a hundred percent immersive. You have to, like you said earlier, you have to, it takes your attention.

You know, and that's what's so great. know, you talk, people talk so much about it and they leave their problems behind when they get in the water. It requires a hundred percent of your attention and it asks that of you and it's easy to give it. There are other things that require a hundred percent of your attention, like, you know, algebra, but you don't want to give it, you know, worse. And it's very unique in that aspect. and the effect is, is, is almost immediate. You know, it's pretty, it's really amazing. And that's.

You know, we were talking about the challenges of transition for a lot of folks in the military, especially if they're in an intense career field in the military. That immersive nature of being in the water and how challenging and hard surfing is, especially after you kind of get through the honeymoon phase of getting pushed in on a giant foamy and small waves, it's extremely challenging and requires

a lot of focus, right? Which you don't really find necessarily in day-to-day life once you get out. And then, especially if you're surfing in like the cold waters of Washington as an almost 50 year old like me, there is a real hard challenge of getting good, developing and surfing half the time in any kind of serious surf. That challenge

I'm talking about not just the focus, the physical determination to be able to serve those type of conditions. You don't find.

in everyday life. And if you do find it in other sports, it can be really dangerous in a way that surfing is to me is not as bad. So, you know, go skiing and mountaineering and...

skydiving and the consequences of falling on a four foot wave or a five foot wave or even an overhead wave in deep water. If you can hold your breath and relax are not that bad.

Greg Finch (52:24)

They're manageable. They're

manageable in your life.

Jason (52:28)

hitting a tree, going 30 miles an hour on a pair of skis is not good, right? Having a malfunction in a parachute, rock climbing or mountaineering and having a major mistake when you're at that level of intensity is really dangerous. But if you're in a deep waterway, that's not too crowded and you're not getting hit by somebody else's surfboard and you're managing all that type of stuff, you can do some very intense surfing without it being

really life threatening. And then, and then to add to that, surfing is technically extremely difficult. And so if you're somebody that not only needs that 100 % focus, needs the physical demands of surfing, but also like the technical development is infinite and takes a lot of focus and is very hard.

And so for somebody coming out of an extremely detail oriented, technically difficult career that has adrenaline, requires focus and physical determination, it also provides this kind of technical depth, which is almost infinite, right? In ways that skiing is much easier. Like people know exactly how to ski properly and you can repeat that same turn on a groom bunny slope over and over again. Surfing is way harder.

Greg Finch (53:55)

It's your right. You don't get that repetition. It's so out of your hands, that part of it. And so you're right. It's technically difficult, which it makes it such the lifelong pursuit of that. It is infinite because you bring your own variables into it. Age, small little injury, your attention, all of these things. Surfing is uniquely positioned for that.

Jason (53:55)

way

Greg Finch (54:22)

specifically to what we're talking about in military and transitioning from that, but just in life. I mean, it goes back to the same point that we make from different areas, which is when you have that place to go to, when you know you're feeling a certain way and you're frustrated or things are piling up, to have that, because it's not an escape. You're actually going to do something very difficult. So it's unique that way.

It's you're telling yourself, you know, I'm going to go in with both of us, you a little bit more cold water, pretty heavy conditions at times. I'm choosing to do something difficult. I'm choosing to get out of my comfort zone. So it's not an escape. It's it's a it's a refresh. It's a reset of where I am physically and mentally that I immediately can go do. And

That's wonderful. And I've probably always been this way in my surfing, which is it is just that connection to the ocean. But as I get older, it gets even more intense, which is, yes, we all want waves, but they're not the most important aspect for me anymore. I just need to get out there. I always will get something. And it's just, I make that choice to go out there. Everything's better.

Jason (55:43)

Yeah. Yeah. And that's, you know, to kind of continue with your point, like Sarah, my wife, she was nice enough to, to let me go surfing yesterday. And I think discussed before, before we started it, it was challenging. It's 15 knots offshore, nine feet at 16 seconds, whatever, how many miles that buoy is off there. And

My expectation, of course, it's always bad idea to have expectations of great surf when you go out, right? Cause it sets you up for failure. Kind of knew that, but I was really excited. Cause I was like, man, offshore, long period, big swell, super clean. There's a cam not on the jetty. There's a cam like a mile down, but you can see the water quality at least. Look, just lines to the horizon, you You get out there and so surfing into whatever size waves those actually are.

can't get in like we were discussing, right? Just like, and the ones that I did get takeoff, like you're blind for the first couple seconds of the takeoff. You can't see anything and you make it out alive. By the way, beautiful rides, you but I only got a couple of waves and I had a little bit of frustration that I couldn't catch these outside sets. Cause honestly, they're just too moving too fast with too much offshore. Just like couldn't get in. You'd have to like, so I get home.

And she was like, how was it? And I was like, it good, it was challenging. out of like four hours, I got two ways that I could actually get into. And she's like, I'm so, sorry. Like just being out there.

Right? And there was a little bit of a challenge that kind of really brought my mood. I was feeling a little, kind of caught a good decent wave right when I got out. And then these beach outside sets are coming in. I was like, those are the waves I want to be surfing. And there was a period of time where I was dodging them, because I wasn't inside enough to catch the insiders, but I wasn't outside enough to catch the outsiders. I was in no man's land. And I had no choice but to dodge.

to paddle out of the way, but I was getting frustrated myself because those are the ways I should be surfing. So I finally get out there and even though I didn't catch any of the giant outsiders, just the fact that I paddled for them, right? And I tried, I really tried to get in and just wasn't able to get down the face and would get blown off the back. Like that was enough.

And like, and how many things can you do where you're actually not successful at paddling into the waves, but like you really were just out there in big surf, in wind, out in nature with swell and water and mist. And like, it was amazing just being in the water. You know what I mean? And so I told Sarah, I was like, don't say I'm sorry. I was just great to be out.

Greg Finch (58:38)

Yeah, goes back to that immersion. Yeah, for sure.

Jason (58:45)

Would I have loved to actually gotten one those outside bombs and not got blown off the back? Yeah, but it kind of didn't matter. Just being in the water was amazing, you know.

Greg Finch (58:52)

No, no.

And it's that, it's that, it's that aspect of it when you really, if we really broke it down, like if we were able to have the statistics over our whole surfing life of, no, it's very, very small. It's like the running joke. It's not surfing, it's paddling. And so that perspective of that is really important. And, you know, call it maturity, call it what it will. I really do focus on that more and more because

Jason (59:06)

There's not that much surfing in it.

Greg Finch (59:21)

We're all guilty of it at some point. You'll be out there and you're starting to feel the frustration come in a little bit. This is the practice of it. allows it because it's all stripped away. This is all I'm doing. It's clearly I'm frustrated right now because of this situation. It's this practice. It's like quickly analyzing, well, why are you frustrated? What's the point that you're frustrated about? And then it's this practice of it.

And that is in and of itself so powerful. I have this thing that happens to me and it's again the same idea. It's representative of other aspects of your life, but I'll be out and it'll be like whatever semi crowded and I'll be having these conversations with other surfers in the water about like what they might do. Like I catch myself doing this and it's this

It's this great practice to immediately stop and go, what are you doing? Like, just be here again. Don't be projecting on something that, first of all, hasn't happened. Two, you're only predisposing yourself to have a certain kind of reaction to something. So you're making it more likely that it's going to happen. Just be here in this moment and just experience this. And I can flip my attitude.

so readily and my hope is practicing that more and doing that more specifically to be able to pull that out of the water because of course it's only affecting us that's that's it in almost every situation surf or not so it's just this practice of it.

Jason (1:01:08)

Yeah. Yeah. I know you're saying, you know, pretty lucky, not lucky in the sense that we have rough surf and cold water where I'm at, but it really keeps the crowds away. And interestingly enough, the times where I have the most, where I'm in my head the most is when there's a lot of other people in the water, because exactly what you're saying is like, I'm thinking about the lineup. I'm thinking about, I don't want to.

I don't want to, you know, be a wave hog on one hand. I don't want to like let people push me off the peak on the other hand. You know, there's that grumpy local that like doesn't like where people park and like, you know, I

You know, like there's this, that and the other and it's like, you know, this guy keeps paddling to the peak and like not making the wave. And then I don't paddle. it's like, it's always other people that gets me out into like my own head negativity. And that is, that is a good challenge to be like, who cares? Just surf whatever wave.

Greg Finch (1:02:13)

Because what we're doing, of course, is bringing our own learned patterns and learned behavior and putting it onto this situation. And a lot of times, it triggers in other humans, other social setting. And so that's what I've really focused on in the last year or so, is just trying to really, really pinpoint that and flipping that story that I'm telling myself and practice that. Because you're right, I'm the same way.

Jason (1:02:21)

Be on.

Greg Finch (1:02:40)

I'll always paddle away if I have a choice. And thankfully, like you said, we surf in settings where we have that option. And thank goodness for that. Because going back to it, it's the immersion of this experience that I'm really seeking. And I'll take a less than wave to be able to have this other aspect of it. Always, I'll always choose that.

Jason (1:02:59)

Yeah, absolutely.

absolutely. Yeah.

Greg Finch (1:03:03)

So talk to me about, as we kind of go in looking forward, do you have a vision for what you want your retreats and Operation Healing Forces? I think we've discussed this a little bit before where it's like, know, this immersion of surfing and having them as part of retreats, do you want to see that happen more? That's my understanding.

Jason (1:03:25)

Yeah. And I would love to see it happen more. I, you know, just, I am, I'm an employee. So I have the challenge of, of doing, you know, doing, doing retreats that kind of fit in our model that fit in the budget and then fit in kind of the, one of the requirements that is, the toughest is really is I need, I need like partners, even if something comes in within budget.

I can't just like pay a surfing retreat place to like put on a retreat and provide the surfing. And then I provide my part and I fly everybody in and I organize and maybe lead discussions and do some intentionality. Really require, I'm required to either have relationship like with Opsurf who are very generous of doing the number of programs together with us as they do.

And then the other types of opportunities that we have is when somebody that has a place in a good location kind of donates a five bedroom home, they're like, we're here in the summer, but we're not here in the winter. If you guys want to use it for a few weeks, then we can plan a retreat around a location like that.

always required to have some kind of commitment or involvement of somebody, local community member that has a house or another nonprofit that has an organization. so as much as I want to do all my retreats, kind of like surf therapy based, there's just the practical challenge of can I find either someone that has a house that they're willing to donate in a location that will kind of support it or what I would prefer is.

another, like another nonprofit that really loves to do the surfing, but they kind of want to split the budget. Like, Jason will fly everybody in. Jason will take everybody out to dinner. Jason will take care of transportation costs and organizations and all that stuff. And we just show up and teach surfing and teach our, you know, I know there's the term like holistic surf therapy or, different languages out there that people use. that would be a big.

big help.

Greg Finch (1:05:46)

Just help for the practicality of it, facilitating it. Yeah.

Jason (1:05:48)

just the practicality of it.

I had a number of surf retreats, both with Operation Surf and ones that I kind of worked on my own last year. I like to continue that as much as I can. But that's just the practical challenge of requirements of putting together retreats.

have to be met. So it can be, it can be challenging to do it.

Greg Finch (1:06:15)

Well, we'll have

all contact information and links out there for people that do have some of those resources, whether they're, you know, homes or other places, because that reaching out and having that partnership, being part of helping to facilitate and grow and fulfill the mission of Operation Healing Forces really is really powerful. So anybody out there listening that do have those resources, we'll make sure they have easy contact for that, able to reach out and connect. Yeah.

Jason (1:06:18)

Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah, thank you.

Yeah. And it's kind of just key to have a connection to the community and a connection with our organizations to just have kind of, I don't know if buy-in is the right word, but just involvement and participation in the program to be involved, to be there, to actively participate and witness kind of the work that we do is important to us. So that's why we have that requirement.

Greg Finch (1:07:12)

It also has built-in trust. If you are able to develop a partnership with somebody that, you know, donates a home for a couple of weeks and then has local connections within that community, that's an immediate trust. This person has, you know, trust in the community, so you can step in and speed up the development of those relationships and helping to facilitate it. Yeah, it's just an effective way to put something together.

Jason (1:07:42)

Yeah, absolutely. yeah, I mean, I'd love, mean, I would seriously look, we do skiing retreats, we do a number of stuff. Really, I haven't found anything that really has the amount, the level of impact that surfing retreats do. And sometimes we have challenging ones too, like, you know, sometimes you have a week where it's, you know, you're, supposed to be surfing, but it's raining and it's on shore and it is, you know, so, but.

the vast majority of the surf retreats really are impactful in a way that I haven't been able to reproduce. Even like this, mean, skiing retreats, you think about skiing and snowboarding, you're up in the mountains, it's gorgeous. The snow is nice, you're doing some very similar, you know, throwing your head down a fall line type of activity, but there's something different about being in the ocean that is unique, you know?

Greg Finch (1:08:37)

Yeah, it's just that it's the depth of that connection. And people ask me, like I've said this numerous times, what people say, well, why surfing? Obviously a non surfer. Why surfing? And it's such a difficult question to convey to somebody that hasn't experienced that. But the closest I can get is you are immediately connected to this energy that the ocean is providing you through all of the

Jason (1:08:38)

So it's hard to reproduce.

Greg Finch (1:09:07)

wind and fetch and everything that is generated from that into this wave that you are deeply connected to in that moment and then is gone. That energy of that wave dissipates and goes and moves on and you were able to connect to that in that moment. That power of that just keeps us coming back again and again.

Jason (1:09:32)

Yeah. I think what you what you alluded to is the ever changing nature of number one, the wave while you're on it.

is very unique in the sense that you get from it and the attention you have to pay and the prediction of this moving thing that

to surf it properly is very unique. It's this ever-changing moving source of power that you are harnessing. That's very unique. I've skied deep powder my whole life. And as amazing a feeling that is, it's not a source of energy and source of ever-changing movement in the same way. So it grabs your attention differently. And then on a longer-term scale, like we discussed earlier, every time you get in the water, the waves are different.

And so it's a unique, like, how do I surf this, these conditions, whether the winds, like, you know, you have three different swells meeting each other in different directions with a different type of wind and different size and sandbars are different or whatever it is. It's different every time you get in the water and that, like you said, keeps you coming back because it's very fleeting and the success is very fleeting.

You can go on a skateboard and ride the same ramp over and over and over again and like just do the same thing. Like you cannot do that surfing. So when you have a wave where you felt like you, you surfed it well and you're in the moment and just things lined up and that's very amazing. The feeling you get of both just awe and connection with nature and accomplishment and all the things is amazing, but it's extremely fleeting because your next 10 waves.

that are gonna take you three or four sessions to collect are not gonna be like that. And you have no choice. Like that's just the way it is, right? And that's where you need to serve.

Greg Finch (1:11:39)

and you get that and it feeds you and you get out of the water and you'll carry that the rest of the day into the next day. But you're ready immediately to have that again. It's not this craving. It's not in that same way. It's just the pursuit of that. That's why it goes back to I can't believe I've said immersion so many times, but you're even immersed out of it. And so that's why like there'll be times where like

Jason (1:12:02)

Yeah.

Greg Finch (1:12:07)

we'll be planning a trip somewhere and my wife will say, do you want to go here? You know, I know there'll be, you could probably get some surf and I'll be like, now this is a non surf trip because I need to get away from it because if there's it's proximity to it, my mind will be constantly occupied with it. What's the swell doing? What's the wind doing? What are the tides doing? All this stuff.

Jason (1:12:26)

Yeah. Yeah.

You can't, yeah, you can't, you can't be like, I'm to catch a couple of waves. be back in an hour. I mean, you can, if you are, if you have surfed, mean, I've surfed for like two and a half years and I know that's not going to happen. So if you've ever surfed for longer than, you know, like, you can't go surf, catch a couple of waves. Like, way, there's no way you just go like,

Greg Finch (1:12:35)

Yeah.

It doesn't work that way.

Jason (1:12:59)

I'll be back. Finish your coffee. I'll be back. Yeah, that's fine.

Greg Finch (1:13:01)

Yeah.

Jason, thanks so much for joining us on Surf Strong Show. I really appreciate your time and it was great talking to you.

Jason (1:13:08)

Thank you so much.